Welcome to the MHB Podcast. This is Michael Baun. And welcome to my eighteenth episode. Tonight I want to talk to you about how to have an effective conversation. More specifically, I want to talk to you about how to have an effective conversation with someone who you disagree with. Why is that important? Communication is fundamental to relationships. You can’t interact with a person beyond a certain point without communicating with them. I would go so far as to say that we can’t really do anything of value without communication. How do we educate people? By communication. How do we love people? By communication. How do we work with others to complete a project? By communication. I think the very future of discovery and advancement is entirely dependent on communication.
When was the last time you tried talking politics with someone who does not share your views? How is it that CNN and Fox News can show us two completely divergent realities? Why is it that if you say certain things at the workplace or at school you risk losing your job or being expelled? I believe the answer to all of these questions is that more and more people are forgetting how to have effective conversations.
You can chase some of this dysfunction back to the postmodern dilemma. Remember, postmodernism rests on the belief that there is no such thing as truth and everything is a matter of perception. It’s like saying any view of the world is valid because no one can say with certainty that it is not valid. Since this way of thinking has become so popular, conversations are less about truth and more about power. Think about it. If truth does not exist and everything is opinion, then the only motivation for speaking is to gain power. And the loudest, most violent voices are considered the most valid.
This is why it’s becoming more common for people to gather into groups and identify with their groups. There is power in numbers. So you see, the line between postmodernism and tribalism is very thin and could be crossed very easily. In the tribe, you do not matter as an individual. If you disagree with your tribe, you are excommunicated and left to die. Political polarization and a disregard for truth are causing this way of thinking to spread in the west. But you can stop all of it with effective conversation.
So what do I mean by effective conversation? Let’s imagine two coworkers sit down for coffee and start talking politics. A few minutes in, they realize that they are on opposite ends of the spectrum. One person is a supporter of President Trump. The other voted for Clinton. Before the coffee even cools, each of them are thinking of ways to gain power in the conversation. The Trump supporter is shocked that she’s worked with the Clinton voter all these years and never realized how dishonest he was. The Clinton voter never would have suspected that his coworker was a bigot – but now he’s not so sure, since she voted for Trump.
You see, what these two are doing is confusing ideas with identities. The fact is, Alice from accounting is not a bigot. And Stephen from marketing is a pretty trustworthy guy. Ideas are not people. People are not ideas. You must separate ideas from people. That is the very first step towards having an effective conversation. You might say, but doesn’t an individual’s ideas represent who they are as a person? The answer to that is no. Most ideas are low resolution and very simple.
Human beings, on the other hand, are incredibly complex. An idea simply cannot encompass the totality of a person. The fact that Alice from accounting supports President Trump does not reliably tell you about who she is as a person. Additionally, ideas are not immutable characteristics of individuals. This means that a person can change their ideas and can adjust to better ones. But if you speak to a person as if their ideas are as much a part of who they are as their eye color – then you deny that person any opportunity to change.
Any time you are talking with someone who you don’t agree with, remember that their idea is not who they are. A little trick for separating ideas from people is by thinking of the person’s name. Alice or Stephen, for example. When I think of a person’s name, it helps me to catch myself if I begin thinking of them as “Trump supporter” or “Clinton Voter.” Remember their name.
Separating ideas from identity is important for yourself too. If you fall in love with your own ideas then you put yourself at risk of never learning anything again. You will cringe at hearing someone say something that contradicts the ideas you love. You’ll avoid these people and only spend time talking to those who support what you support. This means that you and your entire group could be dead wrong about something and never realize it. However, if you separate yourself from your ideas, then you become cool under pressure when speaking with the opposition. This is good for you because you are far more likely to discover your errors through conversation with someone who sees things differently. Once you are able to see where you are wrong, then you can address these details and become less wrong. Chances are, your favorite idea could use a lot of improvement and the best way to improve it is to discuss it with the opposition.
So, you have become comfortable with the fact that you are a human being and not an idea. You are reasonably sure that you can engage with people who disagree with you. You believe you can be civil about it and keep your cool because your value as an individual is not shackled to the idea that you support. Now, it is time to learn about the steel-man. Steel-manning is actually a debate tactic where you do your best to accurately represent your opponents position. This is contrasted with straw-manning, where you misrepresent your opponent’s view in order to cut them down. It turns out that steel-manning is not just good for debates, but it’s also the key to a conversation with someone who you disagree with.
Since you no longer associate your idea with your identity, it’s a lot easier for you to respect the person across from you – so you sit back and you listen to them speak. This time you actually listen, trying to understand what they are saying instead of trying to think of what you can say next. Once they have finished speaking, you will have a pretty good grasp on what they believe. And so, you say it back to them. But this time you don’t highlight all the weakest points and turn the position into something that you can easily discard. Steel-manning means that you try to represent your opponent’s position the best you can – maybe even better than they did. Try to make a better argument for their position then they were able to.
Why on earth would you want to do this? Why would you want to try and build up an idea that you don’t agree with? Because this practice is the best way to get to the truth. Consider: if someone presents an idea that you disagree with and then you straw-man it – or highlight all of the weaknesses – now all you have to contend with is a weak idea. At best, you will win the argument, annoy the person you were talking to, and learn nothing from the exchange.
But when you steel-man – or make the best case you can for the opponent’s position – then you have to contend with a strong idea. This means that you will have to make your own idea even stronger if you want it to survive. Your opponent will be impressed with you for understanding them instead of being annoyed with you for misrepresenting them. You will learn things that you could have never even imagined without the clash of strong ideas. Both you and your opponent will walk away from the exchange a little bit closer to the truth.
And what’s the worst thing that could happen? You steel-man your opponent’s position and discover that your idea is wrong. Failure and being wrong is not a bad thing. Failure and being wrong are the best opportunities you will ever have to learn. Failure and being wrong are the best opportunities you will ever have to show people that your confidence comes from your value as a human being – not some idea that you don’t even spend much time thinking about. Don’t be afraid of failure and of being wrong. Be afraid of becoming the kind of person who refuses to adjust when they are wrong – that’s what leads to destruction. Both conversationally and pragmatically.
If you find this content valuable, feel free to share it and to use it in your own studies. If you’d like to support this podcast, you can do so at www.patreon.com/michaelhbaun. There is a link in the description. Your generosity goes a long way to promoting the growth of this enterprise and the cause of free speech. Thank you all for joining me this evening, and I will see you in the next episode.
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